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Danny said in August 26th, 2009 at 6:53 am

“Anglican theologcial scene is dominated by Anglo-Catholics”
Steve, could you expand on this theme. Being somewhat new to “Anglicanism”. Is there a good article or book on this?

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Dow Sanderson said in August 26th, 2009 at 8:04 am

Alas, if only it were true! Anglo-Catholicism is the single most marginalized party in American Anglicanism. In fact, it has been all but wiped out. And clearly, the Church of England has been no friend to the Anglo-Catholics. I am afraid that my friend Steve is imputing Catholicism to those who are but ritualists… clanging gongs and noisy cymbols, but with no theological center. Frank Griswold and Rowan Williams both came from Anglo-Catholic traditions, but they long ago abandoned the Catholic faith.

And while I am grateful that Archbishop Ramsey’s missionary zeal and prophetic vision of a Black Archbishop of York have been realized, Michael Ramsey was the last Anglo-Catholic and great theologian to hold the See of Canterbury. To invoke his blessed memory within the context of a New Calvinism is inellectually dishonest at best.

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Mark Cooke said in August 26th, 2009 at 8:49 am

Over twenty years ago after reading Dallimore’s 2Vol. biography of George Whitfield and Murray’s Bio of Jonathan Edwards, I had an encounter as dramatic as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Alone in my study I cried, “Oh my gosh, I’m reformed!” The Reformed nature of the 39 articles is why I could become an Anglican. Let the Calvin resurgence sweep the land!

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RobSturdy said in August 26th, 2009 at 9:14 am

Dow,

Maybe go back and read the article again? The author referenced Sentamu as quoting Ramsey to support global mission and African leadership, NOT the new Calvinism. The point the author made in the essay was that much of African leadership is representative of the new Calvinism, not that Michael Ramsey was representative of the new Calvinism. “Intellectual dishonesty” is a fairly serious and even insulting charge. I would be more cautious before pulling that arrow out of the quiver.

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Dow Sanderson said in August 26th, 2009 at 10:47 am

Rob,

I do not mean to insult. And I did read the article again and carefully. It is clear that Archbishop Sentamu (whom I much admire) is quoting Archbishop Ramsey within the context of a missionary zeal that we all advocate. But to place that quote within the author’s larger context is what seems to me to be misleading. Michael Ramsey, I am quite sure, would never have used the words “Anglican Calvinistic Health” in a single sentence.

But in any event, that is a secondary point. My primary reason for writing was simply because it is not true that the Anglican theological scene is in any way “dominated” by Anglo-Catholics. The good folks of Forward in Faith U.K. who were essentially voted out of the church at the last General Synod of the Church of England would be amazed to hear such a thing. So let me place the arrow of intellectual dishonesty back in my quiver, and pray Brother Wood to rethink his depiction of Anglo-Catholicism.

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D. Philip Veitch said in August 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

A fun read, but we’ll see if all this comes to pass. Seems a tad bit enthusiastic for me.

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D. Philip Veitch said in August 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

By the way, I’m a Calvinistic Anglican–with reasons for being that. It’s been a tired and l

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D. Philip Veitch said in August 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

..a tired and lonely path.

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D. Philip Veitch said in August 26th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

Steve, most, most interesting. I looked over the article. Trust your studied at RTS will go well. I’m interested in more information on the matter. You may want to take a look at http://www.reformationanglicanism.blogspot.com as I’m exploring this very subject…”exploring” is the operational word.

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Danny said in August 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

Veitch,
YOur blog background gave me a 7 alarm headache.

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Steve said in August 26th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

Hello Dow, welcome to my neighborhood! The article and depiction of Anglo-Catholicism is drawn from Rob’s site, “Awakening Grace,” which I note at the beginning of the article – though the double quoting of both Rob and MIchael Milton is messy as there is no publishing mechanism allowing me to make the quoting more clear (or, if there is, I do not know how to do this). So, the depiction not mine to rethink. I did include it, though, as I think many of us on the more Protestant side of the cracker would affirm his sentiment that, TEC, at least, feels very Anglo-Catholic.

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Dow Sanderson said in August 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Hello Steve,
What a tidy neighborhood with lovely streets! Thanks for the welcome. And thanks for helping me see the quotes within the quotes. But please hear me when I say (with I believe some Anglo-Catholic credentials punched) whatever TEC may “feel” like to my Protestant brothers, it isn’t Anglo-Catholicism. Unitarians in mitres are not Catholics. Real Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals (whether Calvinists or not) could hold hands all day around the person of Jesus Christ, his atoning work, the absolute necessity of salvation in no other name save His, the reality of heaven for the saved and hell for the lost. We have no disagreements on those truly foundational issues. The difference is that I (and I dare say 99% of FIF, especially in the U.K.) could place our hands on the canons of the Council of Trent and whistle Dixie. You and Rob and Mr. Veitch and other worthies have your hearts more warmed by the Westminster Confession. Mr. Veitch even offers thanks that his Calvinistic background has “inoculated” him against Tractarianism. He sees that as a virtue, and I of coruse, as a great pity!

So we are very clear that we have profound theological differences. And as you know, my concern with ACNA is that this fragile coalition of mutually exclusive ecclesiologies is merely shifted from one place to another. You and I have known our differences for years and yet have maintained a good friendship. So I feel no indignation in stating the obvious about the Protestant/Catholic divide. I just don’t want to malign Catholicism by equating it with the official leadership of the Episcopal Church! Hence, my post.

Blessings, my brother,

Dow

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Rob Sturdy said in August 26th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

For all the more rabid evangelicals who noticed Dow Sanderson cruising Steve’s blog, let me just publicly say Dow’s not all that bad. He does after all have Jonathan Edwards’ collected sermons in the library at Holy Communion (scandal!).

All joking aside, Dow is quite right to say that Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals could hold hands around Jesus all day, principally because we’re Christians! But this is not the difficulty we face. The difficulty we face, even in this conversation is the difficulty concerning language and its meaning. I would not make the distinction between “Real” Anglo-Catholics and the more representative Anglo-Catholics in TEC, nor would I do so with Evangelicals or Calvinists. I might say that some have more depth, faith, etc., but even the “fake” ones are informed and shaped by the tradition.

Perhaps Dow might find more palatable that a shallow, uninformed Anglo-Catholicism is dominating the current Anglican theological scene. There are certainly shallow Evangelical theologies (too many to count!), however I don’t seem them (no matter how shallow or robust) playing a lead role in our current crisis in North American Anglicanism. Even in the Diocese of S.C., even amongst evangelicals I find Anglo-Catholic tendencies to dominate, particularly in matter of ecclessiology. An early, Reformed Anglican view of the episcopate is almost under heard in Dio S.C. Well thought out or no, you cannot deny the influence.

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Rob Sturdy said in August 26th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

BTW, the Canons of Trent declare anathema both the evangelical doctrines of grace as well as those who uphold them. Thankfully, I don’t believe Dow will whistle Dixie to those bits :)

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Danny said in August 26th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

I have a friend of a friend who toured the Vatican last summer. They actually let him hold the Trent documents. He didn’t have much time and couldn’t read latin…with his pen in hand he picked several pages and inserted the word “alone”. Who knows how this will turn out??

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Patrick Allen said in August 26th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

Two notes:

1. Dow really is that bad. Actually, worse.
2. There is exactly one Anglo-Catholic parish in the Diocese of SC.

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Steve said in August 26th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

Wow! All the best Anglo-Catholics are coming out today and that’s part of the problem. My personal affection for the two of you, coupled with my profound respect for the very good Rev’d Fr. Dow creates a natural reticence to argue over these matters while the looming oppression of the national church hovers over us.

However.

From your point of view, Patrick, there is one Anglo-Catholic parish in the DSC. From my point of view, there are many with Holy Communion being the pinnacle of Anglo-Catholic expression.

Generally, my experience of this Diocese is that it is rather high church. I find Anglo-Catholic theology expressed in Diocescan discussion regarding the topics of “catholicity”, “unity”, “apostolic succession”, the seemingly predominate view of 7 sacraments, baptismal regeneration, real presence in the Eucharist and the stated belief that the “Diocese is the primary unit of mission”.

I find Anglo-Catholic expression liturgically in the vestments (stoles, chasubles, albs, etc.), the weekly (let alone daily) celebration of Holy Communion, and in the liturgical practices of reserving the Sacrament and the usage of incense, (to name but two) of many of our collegues.

And, finally, I find Anglo-Catholic influence colloquially in the usage of “Father” rather than “Mr.”

In my “evangelical” church (St. Andrew’s) I discovered, during the interview process, a sanctuary lamp and tabernacle with reserve sacrament and a thurible. For an Ohio/Virginia reformed Anglican boy this was a reformed/evangelicalism with which I was not familiar.

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Danny said in August 27th, 2009 at 7:08 am

Why not just convert to Catholocism? Other than the fact you may want to be married and have babies.

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Dow Sanderson said in August 27th, 2009 at 8:07 am

Steve, I think I finally get it. And I agree with you. The outward trappings of some “catholic” things have very much influenced the Episcopal Church in the last century and a half. The things that you mention finding at St. Andrew’s make your point. Even St. Michael’s and St. Philip’s were “redecorated” after the Oxford movement. But when Fr. Patrick says that we are the only Catholic parish in the Diocese, he means we buy the whole package. From our perspective, it is all or nothing. Choosing a few “lovely” things from the worshop cafeteria is not what we are about. And I suppose we are a little touchy about it because so many people who call themselves Anglo-Catholics on the basis of “vesture, posture and gesture” actually revile the essential doctrines that are so very dear to us.

But I can clearly “get it” that as Low-Church Evangleicals seek Gospel clarity when it comes to dealing with the heresy and disobedience of this present crisis, terms like “catholicity” and “unity” simply sound like stumbling blocks and obstacles. But again, that is why this conversation is so important. We ARE in a crisis. If something is adiaphora, then to cling to it is idolatrous. But if it is of the essence of the church, then to reject it is impossible. That is where you and I sit on two different sides.

I think it is time now for me to leave virtual suburbia and head home. But I am grateful to Rob and Ian and others for getting this conversation started. It is a very important dialogue in which we all need to participate. Rather than clogging up your “comments” section, I will be happy to share some things I have written for our upcoming parish meeting. That may help continue the conversation as well.

Blessings… and Friends in Christ always!

Dow

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Mark Cooke said in August 27th, 2009 at 9:51 am

As one who came to Anglicanism from the outside, having already embraced a Reformed theology rooted in an Evangelical & Chrismatic experience, and having cut my Anglican teeth on high church form without much substance, I hear both Steve & Dow clearly.
Dow’s HC may provide the “total package” – and my experiences there in worship witnessed both form and substance – but my observation is that this expression of Anglo-Catholicism is an anomoly in the present church landscape.
I have worshipped (attended a service) in the Cathedral of Newark, witnessing the very same high churchmanship with all the AC “trappings”, while none of it meant anything, and I also saw first-hand at the Cathedral that one could expouse a position of “Orthodoxy” but somehow the trappings became a substitute for substance. This then becomes the first step towards High Church liturgy void of the historic faith.
Although I believe that Fr. Dow is correct in saying that there is much ACs & Evangelicals can agree on as we fellowship around the person & work of Christ,I have also worshipped, preached and celebrated in more than 3/4 of the parishes in the Dio of SC and am strongly inclined to agree with Mr. Wood.
Forever your BaptoCharismAnglican brother, Sola Dei Gloria!

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KimL said in August 27th, 2009 at 10:34 am

As a lifelong Calvinist who hesitated at first to even set foot in St A’s when we moved here … due to an outsider’s (unfair, I now realize) perception of TEC being populated by “Unitarians in mitres” as Fr. Sanderson so well describes it … I am learning a great deal from this discussion. Thanks, Steve (& all of you)!

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Iain Boyd said in August 27th, 2009 at 10:52 am

I think one of the things that mystifies me about the scene in America is that while liberal Anglo-Catholics can be found roving in packs, you don’t find any liberal Evangelicals. Is there any reason for that?

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Rob Sturdy said in August 27th, 2009 at 11:23 am

Yes. We have reached a consensus. Now we must write a paper with I don’t know, say 39 points or articles?

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Danny said in August 27th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
I submit these for review or our new “paper”.. Just a start mind you.

I. There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man’s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men

III. Of the going down of Christ into Hell.
As Christ died for us, and was buried, so also is it to be believed, that he went down into Hell.

IV. Of the Resurrection of Christ.
Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all things appertaining to the perfection of Man’s nature; wherewith he ascended into Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day.

V. Of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory, with the Father and the Son, very and eternal God.

VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.

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David Virtue said in August 27th, 2009 at 10:17 pm

Would you be interested in cross-linking with VOL?

David

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Treading Grain » Post Topic » Top August Posts said in September 4th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

[...] 1.  Anglicanism and the New Calvinism. [...]

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