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	<title>Comments on: Anglicanism and the New Calvinism</title>
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	<description>Running with theological scissors</description>
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		<title>By: Treading Grain &#187; Post Topic &#187; Top August Posts</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-640</link>
		<dc:creator>Treading Grain &#187; Post Topic &#187; Top August Posts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] 1.  Anglicanism and the New Calvinism. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1.  Anglicanism and the New Calvinism. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Virtue</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>David Virtue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 03:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Would you be interested in cross-linking with VOL?

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you be interested in cross-linking with VOL?</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-528</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-528</guid>
		<description>I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
I submit these for review or our new &quot;paper&quot;.. Just a start mind you.

I. There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man&#039;s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men

III. Of the going down of Christ into Hell.
As Christ died for us, and was buried, so also is it to be believed, that he went down into Hell.

IV. Of the Resurrection of Christ.
Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all things appertaining to the perfection of Man&#039;s nature; wherewith he ascended into Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day.

V. Of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory, with the Father and the Son, very and eternal God.

VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.<br />
I submit these for review or our new &#8220;paper&#8221;.. Just a start mind you.</p>
<p>I. There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.</p>
<p>II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.<br />
The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man&#8217;s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men</p>
<p>III. Of the going down of Christ into Hell.<br />
As Christ died for us, and was buried, so also is it to be believed, that he went down into Hell.</p>
<p>IV. Of the Resurrection of Christ.<br />
Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all things appertaining to the perfection of Man&#8217;s nature; wherewith he ascended into Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day.</p>
<p>V. Of the Holy Ghost.<br />
The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory, with the Father and the Son, very and eternal God.</p>
<p>VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.<br />
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Sturdy</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-526</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Sturdy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-526</guid>
		<description>Yes.  We have reached a consensus.  Now we must write a paper with I don&#039;t know, say 39 points or articles?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.  We have reached a consensus.  Now we must write a paper with I don&#8217;t know, say 39 points or articles?</p>
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		<title>By: Iain Boyd</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-525</guid>
		<description>I think one of the things that mystifies me about the scene in America is that while liberal Anglo-Catholics can be found roving in packs, you don&#039;t find any liberal Evangelicals.  Is there any reason for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the things that mystifies me about the scene in America is that while liberal Anglo-Catholics can be found roving in packs, you don&#8217;t find any liberal Evangelicals.  Is there any reason for that?</p>
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		<title>By: KimL</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-524</link>
		<dc:creator>KimL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-524</guid>
		<description>As a lifelong Calvinist who hesitated at first to even set foot in St A&#039;s when we moved here ... due to an outsider&#039;s (unfair, I now realize) perception of TEC being populated by &quot;Unitarians in mitres&quot; as Fr. Sanderson so well describes it ... I am learning a great deal from this discussion.  Thanks, Steve (&amp; all of you)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a lifelong Calvinist who hesitated at first to even set foot in St A&#8217;s when we moved here &#8230; due to an outsider&#8217;s (unfair, I now realize) perception of TEC being populated by &#8220;Unitarians in mitres&#8221; as Fr. Sanderson so well describes it &#8230; I am learning a great deal from this discussion.  Thanks, Steve (&amp; all of you)!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cooke</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-523</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-523</guid>
		<description>As one who came to Anglicanism from the outside, having already embraced a Reformed theology rooted in an Evangelical &amp; Chrismatic experience, and having cut my Anglican teeth on high church form without much substance, I hear both Steve &amp; Dow clearly.
Dow&#039;s HC may provide the &quot;total package&quot; - and my experiences there in worship witnessed both form and substance - but my observation is that this expression of Anglo-Catholicism is an anomoly in the present church landscape.
I have worshipped (attended a service) in the Cathedral of Newark, witnessing the very same high churchmanship with all the AC &quot;trappings&quot;, while none of it meant anything, and I also saw first-hand at the Cathedral that one could expouse a position of &quot;Orthodoxy&quot; but somehow the trappings became a substitute for substance. This then becomes the first step towards High Church liturgy void of the historic faith.
Although I believe that Fr. Dow is correct in saying that there is much ACs &amp; Evangelicals can agree on as we fellowship around the person &amp; work of Christ,I have also worshipped, preached and celebrated in more than 3/4 of the parishes in the Dio of SC and am strongly inclined to agree with Mr. Wood. 
Forever your BaptoCharismAnglican brother, Sola Dei Gloria!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one who came to Anglicanism from the outside, having already embraced a Reformed theology rooted in an Evangelical &amp; Chrismatic experience, and having cut my Anglican teeth on high church form without much substance, I hear both Steve &amp; Dow clearly.<br />
Dow&#8217;s HC may provide the &#8220;total package&#8221; &#8211; and my experiences there in worship witnessed both form and substance &#8211; but my observation is that this expression of Anglo-Catholicism is an anomoly in the present church landscape.<br />
I have worshipped (attended a service) in the Cathedral of Newark, witnessing the very same high churchmanship with all the AC &#8220;trappings&#8221;, while none of it meant anything, and I also saw first-hand at the Cathedral that one could expouse a position of &#8220;Orthodoxy&#8221; but somehow the trappings became a substitute for substance. This then becomes the first step towards High Church liturgy void of the historic faith.<br />
Although I believe that Fr. Dow is correct in saying that there is much ACs &amp; Evangelicals can agree on as we fellowship around the person &amp; work of Christ,I have also worshipped, preached and celebrated in more than 3/4 of the parishes in the Dio of SC and am strongly inclined to agree with Mr. Wood.<br />
Forever your BaptoCharismAnglican brother, Sola Dei Gloria!</p>
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		<title>By: Dow Sanderson</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-521</link>
		<dc:creator>Dow Sanderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-521</guid>
		<description>Steve,  I think I finally get it.  And I agree with you.  The outward trappings of some &quot;catholic&quot; things have very much influenced the Episcopal Church in the last century and a half.  The things that you mention finding at St. Andrew&#039;s make your point. Even St. Michael&#039;s and St. Philip&#039;s were &quot;redecorated&quot; after the Oxford movement.  But when Fr. Patrick says that we are the only Catholic parish in the Diocese, he means we buy the whole package.  From our perspective, it is all or nothing.  Choosing a few &quot;lovely&quot; things from the worshop cafeteria is not what we are about.  And I suppose we are a little touchy about it because so many people who call themselves Anglo-Catholics on the basis of &quot;vesture, posture and gesture&quot; actually revile the essential doctrines that are so very dear to us.

But I can clearly &quot;get it&quot; that as Low-Church Evangleicals seek Gospel clarity when it comes to dealing with the heresy and disobedience of this present crisis, terms like &quot;catholicity&quot; and &quot;unity&quot; simply sound like stumbling blocks and obstacles.  But again, that is why this conversation is so important.  We ARE in a crisis.  If something is adiaphora, then to cling to it is idolatrous.  But if it is of the essence of the church, then to reject it is impossible.  That is where you and I sit on two different sides.  

I think it is time now for me to leave virtual suburbia and head home.  But I am grateful to Rob and Ian and others for getting this conversation started.  It is a very important dialogue in which we all need to participate.  Rather than clogging up your &quot;comments&quot; section, I will be happy to share some things I have written for our upcoming parish meeting.  That may help continue the conversation as well.

Blessings... and Friends in Christ always!

Dow</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,  I think I finally get it.  And I agree with you.  The outward trappings of some &#8220;catholic&#8221; things have very much influenced the Episcopal Church in the last century and a half.  The things that you mention finding at St. Andrew&#8217;s make your point. Even St. Michael&#8217;s and St. Philip&#8217;s were &#8220;redecorated&#8221; after the Oxford movement.  But when Fr. Patrick says that we are the only Catholic parish in the Diocese, he means we buy the whole package.  From our perspective, it is all or nothing.  Choosing a few &#8220;lovely&#8221; things from the worshop cafeteria is not what we are about.  And I suppose we are a little touchy about it because so many people who call themselves Anglo-Catholics on the basis of &#8220;vesture, posture and gesture&#8221; actually revile the essential doctrines that are so very dear to us.</p>
<p>But I can clearly &#8220;get it&#8221; that as Low-Church Evangleicals seek Gospel clarity when it comes to dealing with the heresy and disobedience of this present crisis, terms like &#8220;catholicity&#8221; and &#8220;unity&#8221; simply sound like stumbling blocks and obstacles.  But again, that is why this conversation is so important.  We ARE in a crisis.  If something is adiaphora, then to cling to it is idolatrous.  But if it is of the essence of the church, then to reject it is impossible.  That is where you and I sit on two different sides.  </p>
<p>I think it is time now for me to leave virtual suburbia and head home.  But I am grateful to Rob and Ian and others for getting this conversation started.  It is a very important dialogue in which we all need to participate.  Rather than clogging up your &#8220;comments&#8221; section, I will be happy to share some things I have written for our upcoming parish meeting.  That may help continue the conversation as well.</p>
<p>Blessings&#8230; and Friends in Christ always!</p>
<p>Dow</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-520</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-520</guid>
		<description>Why not just convert to Catholocism?  Other than the fact you may want to be married and have babies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not just convert to Catholocism?  Other than the fact you may want to be married and have babies.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://treadinggrain.com/2009/anglicanism-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadinggrain.com/?p=855#comment-519</guid>
		<description>Wow! All the best Anglo-Catholics are coming out today and that&#039;s part of the problem.  My personal affection for the two of you, coupled with my profound respect for the very good Rev&#039;d Fr. Dow creates a natural reticence to argue over these matters while the looming oppression of the national church hovers over us.  

However.

From your point of view, Patrick, there is one Anglo-Catholic parish in the DSC.  From my point of view, there are many with Holy Communion being the pinnacle of Anglo-Catholic expression.  

Generally, my experience of this Diocese is that it is rather high church.  I find Anglo-Catholic theology expressed in Diocescan discussion regarding the topics of &quot;catholicity&quot;, &quot;unity&quot;, &quot;apostolic succession&quot;, the seemingly predominate view of 7 sacraments, baptismal regeneration, real presence in the Eucharist and the stated belief that the &quot;Diocese is the primary unit of mission&quot;.

I find Anglo-Catholic expression liturgically in the vestments (stoles, chasubles, albs, etc.), the weekly (let alone daily) celebration of Holy Communion, and in the liturgical practices of reserving the Sacrament and the usage of incense, (to name but two) of many of our collegues.

And, finally, I find Anglo-Catholic influence colloquially in the usage of &quot;Father&quot; rather than &quot;Mr.&quot; 

In my &quot;evangelical&quot; church (St. Andrew&#039;s) I discovered, during the interview process, a sanctuary lamp and tabernacle with reserve sacrament and a thurible.  For an Ohio/Virginia reformed Anglican boy this was a reformed/evangelicalism with which I was not familiar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! All the best Anglo-Catholics are coming out today and that&#8217;s part of the problem.  My personal affection for the two of you, coupled with my profound respect for the very good Rev&#8217;d Fr. Dow creates a natural reticence to argue over these matters while the looming oppression of the national church hovers over us.  </p>
<p>However.</p>
<p>From your point of view, Patrick, there is one Anglo-Catholic parish in the DSC.  From my point of view, there are many with Holy Communion being the pinnacle of Anglo-Catholic expression.  </p>
<p>Generally, my experience of this Diocese is that it is rather high church.  I find Anglo-Catholic theology expressed in Diocescan discussion regarding the topics of &#8220;catholicity&#8221;, &#8220;unity&#8221;, &#8220;apostolic succession&#8221;, the seemingly predominate view of 7 sacraments, baptismal regeneration, real presence in the Eucharist and the stated belief that the &#8220;Diocese is the primary unit of mission&#8221;.</p>
<p>I find Anglo-Catholic expression liturgically in the vestments (stoles, chasubles, albs, etc.), the weekly (let alone daily) celebration of Holy Communion, and in the liturgical practices of reserving the Sacrament and the usage of incense, (to name but two) of many of our collegues.</p>
<p>And, finally, I find Anglo-Catholic influence colloquially in the usage of &#8220;Father&#8221; rather than &#8220;Mr.&#8221; </p>
<p>In my &#8220;evangelical&#8221; church (St. Andrew&#8217;s) I discovered, during the interview process, a sanctuary lamp and tabernacle with reserve sacrament and a thurible.  For an Ohio/Virginia reformed Anglican boy this was a reformed/evangelicalism with which I was not familiar.</p>
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