Last September, at the invitation of KJS, I joined 6 other rectors of large Episcopal churches in NY for a little confab. I wrote about the experience here. Following is an excerpt of my predictive outcome of the past General Convention:
What I think:
I think that the financial challenges facing the reorganization of the National Church offices could be addressed with a return to creedal Christianity and a cessation of the lawsuits.
I think that the conservative/re-asserting remnant will get their legislative clocks cleaned at General Convention 2009.
I think that B033 is going to be repealed at General Convention 2009.
I think that the marriage (in States where the legislature or courts have ruled this legal) or blessing of same-sex persons will be authorized at General Convention 2009.
I think that the 2009 General Convention will modify the “Dennis Canon”, giving the National Church property ownership (it’s hard to remember that until 1979 PARISHES “owned” their property – not the Diocese or National Church).
I think that many in leadership at the 2009 General Convention will be content to walk apart from the Anglican Communion.
I think that based on the experience with women’s ordination the 2009 General Convention will debate, and defeat, a “conscience clause” with regard to same-sex ordinations and blessings/marriages.
I think that the above actions will render it impossible for anyone left from “my side” to remain within TEC (though, of course, some will).
What I hope:
That a new North American Anglican Province is formed in the very near future.
With the exception of the Dennis Canon and conscience clause, neither of which were publicly addressed, I think I was pretty accurate.
My hope now, though, is that with the new North American Anglican province (ACNA) being a reality rather than a hope the Diocese of SC will soon join.
…..(though, of course, some will).
Sadly that is also going to be true. In talking with traditional friends still in TEC, both clergy and laity, I find that most are hunkering down behind the imagined shield that “It won’t effect us here!” No doubt when the tombstone of TEC is finally carved, it will have that as an epitaph.
I worship sometimes with a group of Anglicans who meet in a school. They call themselves St. Peters and the church is certainly not of brick and mortor. I participated in prayer for “The Church” long before I set foot in St.Andrews. Go back to your roots and don’t be afraid. As a man Jesus was a radical who railed against convention and It’s O.K. for you to be just like him. “He Lives”
How wonderful that God gave you those insights last year. It just goes to show how in tune your thoughts are with God! That in itself is a potent feeling. Am I off base when I see the positive point of view? I don’t have this long familial history with TEC. I’ve changed denominations 4 times in my life. I’m not sure what that says about me as a Christian, but I always left for the right reason-b/c I saw that denomination turning away from God’s word. Starting over and heading in the right direction gives me the same beautiful feelings that I get after I recognize my sin, cry my eyes out,and ask God’s forgiveness. Then I begin walking in the way of the Lord. I know this sounds incredibly simplistic, but do you think that could be the point-becoming clean and new? I’d welcome any thoughts…
I remember holding onto hope so long for my beloved Dad when he was struggling with colon cancer, believing in faith that God would heal him. I can also still remember so well the day my Mom made it clear to me outside his hospital room just how bad it was, and I finally realized he was going to die. A little dam inside me just broke, like the Mother in that My Sister’s Keeper movie when she finally lets go of her daughter.
I am not weeping over the split in TEC but I know many many Episcopalians who are. I, like Steve, though saddened and sick over it, am ready for my Diocese to brave up, gird up and move on into the future. When your General Convention makes room for positive discussions over bestiality and pederasty in the church and culture, let alone LGBT issues and bottomline authority of Holy Scriptures, the time to face reality is was over due.
A new day is dawning.
Steve,
With over 75% of the convention not being convinced by the SC minority case, is leaving the TEC really the answer? Not staying our course and providing a counter-balance could be even more problematic for the TEC. Perhaps with more prayer you and others will find the strength to continue being a voice to be considered by the majority.
Joining the ACNA could cause many SC Episcopal churches cause for grave concern as their congregations may reflect diverse opinions which may not be in concert with their pastor or the so called vocal majority. Consider this… there may be a silent Episcopal constiuency here in SC that needs to be heard and respresented that does want to continue engaging a dialogue with the majority in the TEC. I raise this because the any future decision on the course of action for the SC Diocese should consider its minority voices and respresent a fair and balance view of all the Diocese. For those of us who are “cradle Episcopalians” in SC and want to continue the dialogue with TEC, leaving and joining the ACNA is a retreat only to safe ground and not defending the Truth as you view it.
In Peace,
Trumpet
Trumpet,
Isn’t the real issue for most SC churches that of leaving the buildings? If churches could (as they should be able to) leave TEC for ACNA and keep their buildings, wouldn’t most leave?
Just some questions. And your thoughts too, Steve?
Let me apologize in advance for asking what are probably stupid questions to people who read all these Anglican blogs every day… but…
* If we were to leave TEC, would we very likely lose our buildings?
* Would Bishop Lawrence be deposed?
* What would happen to the clergy who support leaving TEC? Is there a priest version of being deposed, too?
Sorry to sound so base and stupid, but those are the things I’d really like to know (in plain answers, if possible). I get that actual outcomes will depend on a lot of factors, but surely your guesstimation on these questions will be better grounded in substance than my own (if not, we’re all screwed).
Personally, I think it’d be horrible to lose the buildings, but I’m materialistic like that.
If we do lose the buildings, do we lose all financial holdings? Will our clergy still get – you know – paid? I could get over losing the church buildings (eventually & begrudgingly), but if we’re suddenly meeting in a cafe-gym-a-torium I’m really going to need the guy in the collar to be able to focus on the Lord and leading us and not whether his electricity is going to still be on when he gets home.
I’m just trying to understand how it’s going to work. I believe that it will, if Bishop Lawrence and the Standing Committee discern that the Lord is leading us out of TEC and into ACNA… I’m just unclear on the nuts and bolts (or dollars and cents).
Thanks in advance if anybody answers these questions.
The questions posed in this thread make me reconsider my previous comment. I would like to know the fate of the real property to our SAMP members. While a member at St. Timothy’s ACC here in Chas, we ran across the same concerns w/ the TEC back in the 90′s. We truly sweated it out until we won in litigation. This kind of stuff makes me sick!
Very good questions. Hard part is, who knows? If I did, I could be a wealthy man. Here’s what I’d expect:
1. There will be lawsuits over property. The General Convention budgeted money to sue the beejezus out of everyone. It will take years to sort out the legal realtiy – I think All Saints, Pawley’s is at 8+ years and counting, and there’s still a chance it could go to the US Supreme Court.
2. Bishop Lawrence would be deposed.
3. All clergy who decided to leave would be deposed.
4. As for priests getting paid, well, I guess that would depend on the local parish as parishes, not dioceses, pay parish priests. One would assume that the parish would pay their priest.
Steve, could you refresh my memory (you know how dodgy mine is) … Why was it exactly that Ridley, Latimer, and Cranmer were burned at the stake in Oxford?
Just an observation on one part of the questions. There is nothing to stop Bishop Lawrence from negotiating settlements with parishes to give them full ownership of their buildings. This would then enable them to leave with their buildings.
This was happening in the Diocese of Virginia and several such settlements were worked out before Bishop Lee got pressured by Schori to stop.
It can happen if there is a will to do it and to ignore the pressure from the Presiding Litigator. As ++Rowan Williams has said, the church is made up of dioceses — this is where the authority exists. There is nothing that gives Schori authority over dioceses in these matters, unless bishops give in to her pressure.
Would that mean that she would try to depose Bishop Lawrence? Likely. But if the deals have been done, so what. It would be a badge of honor to be deposed.
I’ll never understand the “cradle to grave Episcopalian”…damn the consequences. I consider myself a Confessional Christian first, a husband second, a father third, a professional fourth, and perhaps an Anglican somewhere down the line.
What exactly would have to happen in the ECUSA to get such people to leave…open worship of Satan?