+Fitz lectured at our St. Paul’s Theological Center tonight on the topic of Karl Barth. Here was one of the questions he left us with:
Does predestination deny our freedom or establish it?
What do you think? Why?
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Establishes it.
OK, I’ve never had formal theological training (which might be a positive) and I was not at church tonight to hear the teaching, but it is my understanding that we are all hopelessly and helplessly fallen, spiritually dead and incapable of saying “Yes” to God. Christ died for all and raises each of us to new life. It is God’s desire that all be saved and so he redeems all. Yet, having been redeemed and made spiritually alive, we are then free to say “No” to God. Thus we have it wrong if we think God “sends” people to Hell. Instead, God redeems all and welcomes all, but allows us the freedom to choose separation from Him if that is our wish.
We could have listened to him till midnight!
Spencer ,
I agree with establishes it but,
I’m confused with this part of your statement
“Yet, having been redeemed and made spiritually alive, we are then free to say “No” to God.”
just want to be sure I understand, so
Those who have been forgiven of sin against God by the Blood of Jesus can then go to the place where the punishment for sin against God is carried out?
If that is what your saying, then the death of Jesus didn’t accomplish salvation for anyone His death only makes salvation possible if you choose Him after you have a new heart. At this point you are saved by your decision and not the work of Jesus who said ” it is finished”. Was Jesus really finished then?
Please don’t read this as a harsh statement against you. Just want to be clear on what a predestined atonement means.
Steve-
You don’t shy away from the tough questions – do you?!
I LOVE it!!!
As a Classical Arminian (not the “arminian” typically defined by Calvinists which would imply man’s part in salvation…), and very atypically Wheaton – I think you know where I would come down on this one issue which has been at the heart of the reformed debate for literally hundreds of years… (and yes, I know I am in the minority).
To add a visual for my earlier comment
when my daughter was born something happened to my heart. I instantly loved something in a way I didn’t believe existed.
Now you could tell me I could choose to keep her or to not be her parent. This choice though could not enter my head because of the expulsive power of this love for her that was in my heart.
if you have time read J.I. Packer’s essay on John Owen’s Death of Death in the Death of Christ.
It’s not to long and he handles this subject well.
In a word, I would say, YES! (to both questions) Jesus’ work on the cross has been done, including payment for every sin ever committed in the past as well as every sin committed in the future. The restoration which Jesus’ gave to us put us in right relationship with God. However, God will never force His will upon us, but rather He asks us to choose it freely, because that is what love demands. Love does not control, it beckons us come. Because God loves us He allows us to choose our own way. If we decide that to be in God’s continual presence would be very unpleasant for us, then God loves us enough to let us go away from His presence. To do otherwise would be cruel.
If we take the case of your daughter whom you love, I wonder just how old she is… Not knowing you at all, but from your statements I suspect she is still young. But let’s imagine if she were older. She will always be your daughter and you will always love her and it is precisely that love for her that will allow you to let her go when she becomes an adult, when she meets and marries a man whom she loves more than her father, what will you do then? You will let her go, just as God lets us go if we choose to. Would her choice negate your love for her? No. Would her leaving negate all the sacrifices you made (and will make) for her? No. And yet, you let her go because your love for her demands that you do so. It is no different with God.
That is my view, however, I have no desire to debate this. There are many opinions on the subject. This debate will not be settled in my lifetime and I have no desire to spend my life arguing it. I have offered my view, others may do likewise for a free exchange of ideas.
An additional thought… You speak of Hell as a place where God sends people as punishment for sin. That is not my view of Hell. My view of Hell is eternal separation from God which WE choose when WE decide to do things our way and not God’s way. Satan was once an Angel who decided to go his own way. Then he tempted Adam and Eve to do the same. If you are suggesting that God’s love for us is so compelling that we are utterly powerless to resist His call, then how is it possible that Satan fell? How is it possible that Adam and Eve sinned?
Spencer,
Thank you for your passion brother.
When I say brother I mean it, I do not see you as adversary of some debate that has gone on for some time.
You are my brother we have 1 Father, 1 Savior, 1 Salvation.
My daughter is now 12. When she was born I had a love I never had before. This picture break s down as you show as she gets older, true.
But God is not a loving God if He does not give you himself. I am not a loving father if I do not point my daughter to the Love of Yahweh.
Because in this whole cosmos there is nothing Better than Him.
Here’s the test find someone who is regenerate and ask them to not say yes to God anymore.
As far as Hell Jesus talks about Hell more than Heaven and talks about it more than anyone in the Bible.
As far as satan is concerned I can only say what the bible say about Him.
Adam and Eve did not sin because they were in a state of sin, but you and I sin because that is our nature. We would always choose to disobey cause that’s the only choose our nature allows.
Adam & Eve did have a pure free will and chose poorly and all of creation has been under a curse since.
The short of it is did Jesus accomplish anything at the cross or did he make it possible for humans to accomplish something?
If you don’t wish to continue I understand , but remember I don’t seek out debates either or find pleasure in the banter back and forth, but as to Christ He did something for me and I will talk about it all of my days. I would love to meet you Just so you know my sincerity. I’ll be at there at the church Tues for the Theologian talk. Hopefully we can meet.
“The short of it is did Jesus accomplish anything at the cross or did he make it possible for humans to accomplish something?”
YES and YES. Not either/or.
Ok, I need a little help. I’m not sure I understand the question. How could predestination establish my freedom? I’m really missing something here.
Also, my pastor made a comment in one of his sermons that to immediately jump to the question of eternal separation from God, hell, is not the jump Augustine, Luther and Calvin would have made. I’m not sure what he meant by that but I did notice Spencer in his opening comment jumped right to the topic of hell. Is hell necessarily related to predestination?
Any thoughts, Usama, Spencer, Other?
Love you Spencer hope we get to meet.
By the way did you see the Soren Kierkegard talk by Rob Sturdy. He addresses this issue of “either or”.
Still read the first part of this essay
http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/others/deathofdeath.html
it states what is at stake. My favorite part so far is this;
“Now, here are two coherent interpretations of the biblical gospel, which stand in evident opposition to each other. The difference between them is not primarily one of emphasis, but of content. One proclaims a God who saves; the other speaks of a God Who enables man to save himself. One view presents the three great acts of the Holy Trinity for the recovering of lost mankind—election by the Father, redemption by the Son, calling by the Spirit—as directed towards the same persons, and as securing their salvation infallibly”
Kellie,
Just to clarify, my initial comment about Hell was to state that people should NOT have the view that God predestines people to go to heaven or hell.
I’m headed out to drink some green beer and sing Irish pub songs so I’ll leave the answers to others.
And as I depart…
May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face.
May the rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.
Kellie,
I have not read enough Calvin Luther or Augustine to comment on your pastors statement.
Some argue against predestination because of some who say people are predestined to Hell. You can end up in that thought from the doctrine of predestination. Maybe that’s what he meant.
here’s something that Jesus says that comforts me
John 10
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are i the Christ, j tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. k The works that I do l in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but m you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 n My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 o I give them eternal life, and p they will never perish, and q no one will snatch them out of my hand
There is a regenerating work of God in men, “taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.” Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.
“Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,–
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.”
C. Wesley
Spencer,
Where does the Bible say “God will never force His will upon us”? Whatever happened to irresistible grace. If God takes away our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh(Eze. 11)??? What will the choice then be??? No? And to those he does not change their hearts from stone to flesh, therefore not knowing the grace that awaits them…a less hot Hell?? I’m now confused by you logic. Does God change everyone’s heart? Or just some hearts and then even those can say no?? Without our hearts being acted on first by God(nonergism)we will always be slaves to sin…no matter what it might feel or have felt like at the time.